916. - Melissa Auf der Maur

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? A very, very rare Monday afternoon recording. It is your... Co-host Chris Black here. It's the first spring day in New York. It is feral out there. People are eating in the streets. They're drinking in the streets. They're walking fast. They're walking slow. They're taking it all in. There's shirtless guys in the park. There's old Asian people playing ping pong. It's kind of a... the grab bag of what New York has to offer when the weather reaches this kind of temperature, Jason. Okay. You think spring has officially sprung, or is this just a little cock tease before we get another dump on you? Based on my experiences as a resident and current weather patterns and global warming, I'm going to say that this is merely a tease, a tickle, and that... old men winter will return in some way shape or form before it's all said and done and mr sunshine can show us a smile fabulous chris i'm happy for you yeah i'm uh i'm also happy for you just wanted to congratulate you on the dakota johnson calvin klein ad dropping today That was big for you? Yeah, it was big in my household. And also, thank you to Alex for making that happen. Yeah, she had a lot to do with that. Look, Dakota Johnson has become sort of the hottest chick in the game, and it seems to be universally accepted. Would you agree with that? Are you saying she's giving va-va-voom? I'm just saying that it feels like something happened where now she's just sort of like...

putting it out there and everybody likes it i don't hear anybody being like nah i don't you know but you know it seems pretty women and men alike i guess is what i'm trying to say yeah i guess i'm trying to think of who else because you know there's there's other hotties that we're sort of battling it out margot robbie margot robbie's popping off but you know she represents a blonde contingency you know anna de armas she still you know is not really an actor So, you know, she's not really working a lot. Ana de Arnis, people don't know who that is. Like there are people, you know what I'm going to say? You could show a picture of her and people would be like, I don't know. She work at Lovely Day. I don't know who that is. Well, I guess I'm talking about people that could be considered, you know, an A-list celebrity. sure she's dating tom cruise you know she's a very big movie star but i think that's i think that's over but yes in theory she's famous oh really is that tea or is this well i think it's pretty i mean i think it's confirmed i think he's just back to being secretly gay again you tea dropping you plopping that little bag in my wawa no i think i think it's pretty I'm trying to think of, because I don't consider her to be A-list. Everyone is kind of, we're done with Sydney Sweeney, especially after the siren launch. Speak for yourself. When I was at church yesterday, all the guys were talking about it, so I don't know what you mean. Church meaning? Are we talking equinox or just a literal Baptist church? No, I'm saying a Baptist church. She's appealing to a demographic that may not be exactly her own, but I did hear from an unnamed source that after that, uh chesty cosmopolitan cover the siren sold like a motherfucker so it it did i just you know magazines still work is all i'm trying to say this is a big a broken bra a broken bra is right twice is what he's saying also you know thrown into the ring not unlike the dakota coming out of nowhere For actress Hotties vying for the number one spot, Zan Hathaway really continues much like a Benjamin Button reverse aging as she's your age. She's what, 43 something? It's beautiful to see Zan come back from being hated for no reason to being sort of like, let's put you in magazines and make you look sexy. It's honestly, it warms my heart because as much as I like to make fun of her for being a...

sort of an annoying thespian, I appreciate that she held it down and just came back. She just weathered the storm, and now the world has turned with her. And I appreciate the resolve that she showed. We cannot help but stand the Zan, is what you're saying. Stand the Zan, baby, you already know. You already know, but yeah, there's a Dakota Johnson, Calvin Klein underwear ad where, as you pointed out, there's, I believe, a reference to the... The famous Austin Powers, Spy Who Shag Me scene with Elizabeth Hurley where they're sort of doing a little playful comedic bit where they wake up from having sex in the morning and he's saying coffee and holds up two creamers in place of her breasts and there's a lot of physical humor and gags sort of blocking. Revealing anything. The adult, the parts. Yes, yes. I mean, I would also like to say this is big for the- It was probably on the mood board over there at Calvin, right? For the Wired It Girls Instagram account, this is, I mean, this is a shift that we have not seen. Because it's not, because Dakota's lounging around in her Calvin Klein skivvies. having a call with you know a producer or director she's wearing not not even apple headphones but black sort of brandless wired headphones which i thought was a nice choice obviously shorty got the the panasonic song shorty got the jvc shorty got the amazon basics on you know like i lose these whatever um yeah amazon basics no audrey hubbard but i think that um I think that this is big for all of us. And I hope that, obviously, I hope the underwear sells. That affects my bottom line. But yeah, it was a beautiful thing to see on this Monday morning. You know, the sun is out. As if Calvin Klein needs to sell any more underwear. Here we go. But is there going to be something for the fellas? Do you have any insider tea? I feel like we're doing... WWD podcast. You're saying like another bad bunny hog out style campaign? Well, I mean, just I don't know if these underwear that she is selling are a new innovation. Is there a new product dropping? Is it like the MacBook Neo?

of draws? I'm sure. Is it or is it not the MacBook Neo of draws? I don't know. I don't have that information. I do feel like it's a new style, maybe. It doesn't seem exactly like the classic styles we're all familiar with. I'm not 100% sure. Okay. If you couldn't believe it, Jason, I wasn't super focused on the product. You weren't in. I wasn't super focused. You didn't get a rundown of the textile fabric density? No, I didn't ask for the breakdown of synthetics. aesthetics versus natural fibers. I was more focused on the acting. I was trying to understand what the story was. You know what I mean? Really unpack the... just kind of what they're trying to do you know women's voices they're not all they're not all loud and easy to comprehend so sometimes you really got to read between the lines especially during women's day and month right it's always women's month on how long gone though that's the thing yeah let's wake that up biatch yeah i guess um speaking of the macbook neo i know that you're always on the hunt for a new macbook laptop you're going to get something like this you're going to slide in at first people were saying it's a little a little you know that's a toy not a tool it's just some little cheap shit but during the bench testing people are saying it's outperforming some some pretty heavy competition okay so it's some real computing power i you know i don't care enough i you know what it really is jason is it too cheap you know no no i don't think so i can't buy something that has a name like neo I can't. I just can't. That's a personal thing. No shade to R&B singer, multiple wife-haver Neo, and no shade to- No shade to the gaming system Neo Geo. Exactly. Matt Geo, all of them. Isn't there a Neo character that Keanu Reeves played as well? in the matrix is that the matrix okay so you know i think neo is a word that we associate with things good and bad but for some reason i i just can imagine the think tank and the money and time spent on coming up with that name and the ones that were killed and the discussions that were had and i just it feels labored over in a way that is unsexy yeah i mean you know neo just means new i guess but i'm sure there's some deep

Latin. Yeah, but you know what I mean. Knowing what the word means and then, I don't know, it just feels unnecessary to me. But I love when the Apple Corporation innovates. I think they've only had a few misses in my lifetime. I think the Neo will succeed. It's a good idea. It's a great idea and a great price point. So I think it will probably work. It's going to succeed. I agree. Amoeba in Los Angeles, Hollywood. famous record store over the years is now being turned it was um one of those like van gogh oh yeah it's the museum of ice cream but van gogh the one the one on sun the one on sunset boulevard yeah the original building it's being flipped into a a bath house like a like a modern good god good fucking god that's worse that's literally worse than the museum of slime like that is that's i somehow Saunas are not meant for groups. I don't understand who would want to be in a sauna with a group. I guess Nordic people? That's fine. Russian motherfuckers? If you're in the countries where the sauna culture originated, of course, do what they do. That is the right thing. But in Los Angeles, California... Do you really – I don't know, man. It makes me insane. The idea of being in a sauna with like 40 singles, chatting it up while they have like mezcal margaritas is psycho to me. Yeah, and I think the people doing it are – they might be in New York. Yeah, it's a New York-based spa chain. Of course it is. Of course it is. Which one is it? I need to – hold on. I need to turn off my ad blocker. I've been invited to 14 of these that have opened in the last year. And it's, I just wonder how many can possibly survive because I blame the VCs, you know, they're giving them money. And I, I understand why the idea is appealing because sauna culture is, is popping. But if it was up to me, I'm taking TJ route. I would rather spend the five grand and have that shit in my house or on my fucking balcony in New York city than, than go.

to one of those a thousand times it just doesn't the world is sort of now really separating into two categories the the name of the company is literally just called bathhouse they have locations in williamsburg yeah that's the biggest i think that's that's the biggest one yeah but you know there's people who do these tasks whatever it may be sauna-ing meditating working out running jogging rock climbing whatever it is cooking And then because it's their safe sort of meditative space to escape the world, clear the head. And then there's some people who, I guess, are more in need or have a difficult time, more difficult time seeking their community or a larger desire to find a community of people in real life. If by community you mean pussy, then yes, I agree that that is true. I'm of two minds of it. I don't know if one is necessary. if it's just i guess the old me would say like it's the difference between cool people and not cool people but some i think sometimes people might just have like their their brain is wired differently and they're just you know some some animals are more social at the dog park and some hide under the table and It doesn't make one better than the other. Don't bring dogs into this. This is all bad. This is all bad. Don't make it worse by bringing dogs into it. All right. We have a guest today. Look, it's just like when you go to the cat cafe and some of the cats will come up to you and want pets and some of them, you know, you have to. We have a guest today. Uh, thank God. Cause otherwise we'd be talking about group sonning for the next 45 minutes. Um, Melissa off Dumar is a musician, um, who has a new memoir coming out. Even the good girls will cry, which March 17th, very soon. Um, and I, you know, we, I've, we, this has been one of the, uh, hardest podcasts to schedule. It's like, we're trying to get Billie Eilish for three and a half hours. Um, but. Melissa was in Hole. She was in Smashing Pumpkins. She's a legendary Canadian, and her story is pretty unbelievable. She was around for a lot of things that are big memories for Jason and I, and I cannot believe she's from Montreal. She's a real survivor for that. Yeah, I didn't know it has been a tough one to book. She's a hard one to nail down. I didn't know people in Hudson Valley, New York were this busy.

I thought you went to Hudson Valley so you could just bake bread and look good in clogs, but Melissa's proving us more. I thought you were supposed to go there to unplug, unwind, get their fast tickets low. I feel like we're trying to book Bob Iger on the pod or Mark Cuban. Bob Iger. All right, let's give Melissa a call. Hopefully they have Wi-Fi. I have my glasses on. Is that you, Bobby Iger? Hopefully they have Wi-Fi up there in Hudson. She had to spring for the fiber optic cable installation. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions, but how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. I'm trying to get, yeah, I see Pet Shop Boys and maybe more romantic person and then I'm trying to see what's in the background like a steel something. Okay. Those are just his medical devices. It might be my Alessi kettle or maybe my Berkey water filter. There's not much else. Oh, both. Yes. Very good. Kettles. I want you to know that I, I've been excited about this because of Jen. Jen was, you know, raving about these guys. Can't wait. But I am so brain dead right now. This is my fifth hour talking straight, but I'm so glad that you made me. fit me in because i could not well we were joking earlier it was like we were trying to book bob eiger billy eilish with your schedule i don't know who you think you are but hilarious no no i i mean mainly i'm a mother of a teenager and i'm sending a huge book to the printers on friday my second book comes out oh wow this is the photo this is the photo book yeah and it makes no sense that like the deadline of launching this while i'm deadlining that that was my problem but it's more than i'm You're like my first very grown-up podcast I'm doing other than Billy Corgan, and I do love this format. Are you telling me that Cat Daddy has a podcast? It's wrestling-based, though, right? So were you able to keep up? Oh, that is his character. I don't know his character. I didn't know he had a podcast. I'm serious. Yeah, it's called Magnificent Others. Oh, no. Okay. What are we talking about on that podcast, Melissa, if you don't mind me asking?

cool weirdo people he's got like a very uh very eclectic cast of um guests that are magnificent clearly sure but they are you should i mean you should check it out he's big on tiktok that's kind of why he uh that is fucked up But that is how he got big on TikTok. And he invited me. He's like, I want the pumpkin fans to know about your book. I'm like, okay, great. And I had my mentor interview me. But that being said, I want to be super present with you guys. I just had this five-hour back-to-back talk, and I wanted to take a moment of silence to send an intention for this conversation. All right, let's do it. Let's do it. Have we started, by the way? Do you record right away? Okay, so one second. Shut the fuck up. Hard for me. So who are you? Why am I here? We've done this. We've done almost a thousand episodes of this podcast. And I have to say that's the first time someone set the intention after we started. So I'm impressed. I'm impressed by your commitment. Yeah, I can't tell if you're frightened to podcast. You don't think it's going to go well and you had to say a prayer or if you're so confident in your spiritual. sonic connection with the world it's no it's no problem it's like speeding over a speed bump in a monster truck not a problem and also really quick before we start before we start i thought we started we did we did start got it i just wanted to backpedal because you just said jen was telling you and you're talking about jen vendetti the the casting director that was that was the godmother of my daughter yes oh wow you guys are that close okay so you both chose to live in no man's land and she chose to be near me after i told her for 10 years you can still have a life actually a better life if you leave new york city i don't believe you um but yeah no i believe you should move there i'm saying i don't know if i mean i've visited all these upstate towns that people have romanticized and they just seem like brooklyn

to me okay well you weren't here 18 years ago when i showed up and it was twin peaks okay i moved here because it was fucked up and the weirdest shit and to be discovered and then now everybody fucking now it's pacification and i can get lattes on every block and it's retarded how far is it how long would it take you in your volvo to commute from there to this to the city So the reason I ended up here is it's four hours door-to-day door to my mother's house in Montreal. And I fell in love with a guy from lower Manhattan. And I'm like, no. So it was for geographical reasons. You're telling me there's a woman that fell in love with a guy from lower Manhattan? I barely believe that. I've never heard of that in my life. A musician that fell in love with a guy in lower Manhattan? Does that sound stereotypical? Is that what you're saying? I don't believe that one bit. Okay, so you're from Montreal, which I have to say. Um, it's shocking to me. I've, I've lived there for three months during COVID because my wife was living there. And I got to say, I don't know how you did it. One of my least favorite places on earth. Oh my God. I mean, maybe you haven't read my book yet where I give an entire chapter devoted to my city. Cause she's my favorite. My other parent? She's called The City. She raised me. The book comes out next week, so we haven't had a chance to read it yet, but looking forward to it. No one sent us a copy. I don't know how the... I would have read your book. I don't read a lot of them because they're bad, but yours I would have read. Oh my God, that's horrible. I'm so sorry. It's okay. I didn't really ask. We're a dinky podcast in comparison to the other ones that you're doing, so it makes sense. Well, just so you know, though, the reason why I kept putting you as a priority, Jen, was... But I kept asking, why aren't these guys slotted in yet? Because... I hear they're fun to talk to, was that I had random cool friends in the country mention that they heard Jen on the podcast or mention someone else. And I'm like, so according to the radar of people that. I like and know this is a cool podcast. So that's why I kept asking again is I heard about you. We do quite well in the slightly aging rocker demographic. That is sort of our zone. We're the elder millennial to Gen X pipeline. But I hate that you didn't get to read the book or even one second. One second, one second. Uh-oh. There's a cow coming in or something.

Oh, shit. I thought the Milkman was delicious. Oh, you're going to show us the cover. But second of all, because that amazing city that you didn't hate, you liked it. That was a joke. No, no, no. I don't like it. No, I don't like it. You don't like it. Was it the French thing or the cold thing? Yes. Mostly the French thing. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, it is beautiful in the summer. It's very special in the summer, I will say. They used to have good American apparel stores, good place to get ecstasy. And go ahead. You have a book. So you see, act one, magic. Okay. And this is... That's Montreal. This is what you're... Chapter one is my dreamy frontline feminist. Best, coolest woman of the counterculture. My mother. Then you go to chapter two. Your mother was a baddie. Yeah, hold on. My coolest shit father, Nick. And then you go to chapter three. the city she raised me that's so dramatic rooftops and it's the other parents my mother this is like my primary parent the city i would have loved if you ended up being like a dentist with parents like that that would have been that would have been the real twist yeah no i mean i i thought i wouldn't ever be able to live up to how cool they were they were so ahead of their time so radical pioneering on every level and i had to work really hard to have a cool life and because montreal was pretty loose like pretty cool in that era i assume counterculture yeah and there was a whole other parallel to the race riots of the u.s was the english french language wars that's why when you're in montreal it feels yeah yeah yeah it's pretty radical and my parents were very radical very politically involved and my father was in jail many times as a anglophone fighting for the underdog who were the francophones so like i was raised by all counterculture the underdog should be the winner was like the theme that i was raised so how's your how's your your french then your quebecois oh i had to go to french school in my home

life because my mother was an American my mother's from Boston who fell in love with Montreal by studying French literature at McGill and she became like a devout French Canadian theater she's the leading translator of French Canadian theater and she's devoted her life to the French Canadian story and identity and language so I went to French school because that's both parents explained. You're in a French place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a follow-up question. If Montreal is so awesome, why don't you live there now? This is the greatest mystery of my life. I live in conflict. It's true. My poor family. Oh, I've been trying to move back since I left in 1994. It's actually eventually deranged. Like it's some crazy problem I have, but it's because I'm a dual citizen and I realize I live in conflict as I love all the great things of the United States. I love all the great things and I hate both bad sides of both places. I'm like super privileged that I get to live in both and have both is the real answer. Okay. So you go to Montreal a lot. You get your fill is what you're saying. Oh, exactly. And I, that's why, because I live four hours away and. I have a pied-à-terre there. You know what that means? I do know what that means. You're living as privileged as one could live in Hudson, New York. Exactly. And then my husband has an off-the-grid, his family has an off-the-grid cabin in Vermont. We're set. I got everything in the Northeast. You guys sound like fucking truthers. Okay, do you got a bomb shelter too? You got everything but sunshine and warmth. That sounds awesome. You ever been to Florida? And running water and electric. I only have electric vehicles. I have no fossil fuels running through any infrastructure, including this big giant reclaimed schoolhouse. that I am running my operation out of here. So we believe in electric. We believe that the world is round. All right, we're going to wrap it up then, because that's kind of... Okay, well, speaking on the subject of electric cars, I was listening to a podcast episode you did a couple years ago. It was sort of while you were in the process of writing the book, and the Cybertruck had just come out, and you were talking very positively about the Cybertruck, about Elon Musk and his engineering fortitude. Really? What the fuck? So I have a Rivian, okay? I got a Rivian. Oh, you're even worse. You're one of the...

biggest problems out there i didn't know they let women buy those thank god and that makes them cooler than i thought okay well we'll have your have your thoughts and opinions not on elon because you you didn't say like elon is an awesome guy like two years ago you were saying he's like a shitty douchey guy but just from you know the work he's done for the environment yeah to push human beings forward his engineering fortitude you know all that stuff do you still feel that same way about him or has have things changed in these last two years well obviously also my other question to you is do you love the ceo of mercedes and ford hey this is my hey no no don't use my argument this is always my argument with all these fucking losers who think every every ceo is bad of anything basically exactly i mean so i don't care about the guy i just like and he didn't even invent the technology he took cool ideas from other people who are super smart he's got a great crew of engineers and i still think the net positive of that company i wish they would remove him from it because he's creating you know he's probably ruining part in fact there was all of this incredible infrastructure stuff they were supposed to do and then he lost his mind and invested in other crazy things and now we don't have i know he had a baby he had a baby with grimes he really did invest in crazy stuff i couldn't agree more she and i she and i share birthdays and we both went to the same art school we're both born in saint patrick's day we went to concordia university in the art department and i actually am a fan of her like i my art center had one of her early shows like 15 years ago, she played at my cool art center. As an artist, I find her very interesting. I'm very upset that she's lost her way. Love can do that, though. Love can create problems. Love can take you to Hudson. Love can take you to fucking... It's true. Hanging out with tech people can do that as well. Exactly. We drive a Rivian, though. Is it the truck or the SUV? Oh, I wish... No, it's the truck, the pickup truck, because we do have a pretty big infrastructure situation. I do have two giant reclaimed buildings that we manage and have restored, and we have...

creative clientele and big events. So it's more our work truck. I'm familiar with the whole thing. Okay, because you live in New York? I live in New York, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never been, but I've obviously heard of it over here. So you have been to these upstate towns, exactly. So you're hauling giant candles and things around from place to place, is what you're saying. Can I book my wedding there, or is it shows only? Usually, yes, yes. No, I booked the first wedding, and I went to a wedding. I was barely pregnant and had just started this new, crazy idea of this big old factory that was in our backyard and i went to a like a wedding conference convention i don't even know what they were i didn't have any flyers i had nothing and you're doing a round circle like your venue and i said if you want an industrial wedding call me ask for my phone number and i booked the first weddings that is now pretty huge we have a very lucrative wedding business that supports all of my arty loves for the factory people love to get married upstate i know love it it's Just really, I mean, I get it to some extent. But yeah, I mean, weddings are a big business. You can charge people whatever you want. Love. Love, yes. If the parents got bread, love knows no bounds. Yeah, whereas I just want to have 24-hour experimental music festivals, and I do do that too. Melissa, I hate to be the one to tell you, but those are going to lose money. You know what I mean? They might break even if you're lucky. That's what the early bookkeepers used to say to me, like, Melissa, if you want to have a freaky community center, you're also going to have to have weddings. I was like, I'm fine. And I went out and I got weddings and I booked them. I appreciate that you took the bull by the horns and said, you know what? I'll pay Peter. One for you, one for them. Yeah, exactly. I have learned a lot about the real world that I did not learn of while I was in a bass player in a rock band in the 90s. I learned nothing about the real world back then. And then I like ran for a decade trying to escape the 90s, get me to where I am outside of the 90s. And then I emerged in Hudson, New York, and I had a baby and I started a factory and I learned real life.

And I drive a truck, and there's usually garbage in it, to answer your question. How are you doing with real life, though, in general? You burn your garbage up there, right? No way. No, I'm an actual urban girl. I'm actually not rural. The joke is I live in a tiny little city, and I live the city life. Yeah, see that Brooklyn thing you're saying, it's because you weren't up here before it was Brooklyn, but now it's the problem, yes. So you just Postmates Cafe Mutton all day and watch Netflix up there? Wait, did you read The Big Swiss? Have you had that writer on it? I have read The Big Swiss. Yeah, I mean, that's all post-truth Hudson. But do you miss a city setting at all? No. I have a pretty rich inner world of my, like this book I read. I can tell you're crazy, but I'm just saying, you mean that you... Actually, quite sane compared to all the crazy people I've been around. That's also true. You're saying you can spend time with yourself. Yeah, who's the crazy one? Exactly. I am... Uh, I, the only thing I miss about my old life pre small town is I used to play music. Yeah. That's the only thing I really left behind because I chose to not be a nomad freak as a mother. So my transition to small town also then shifted into becoming a mother and I wanted to be home. So no, I think that the only thing I miss of like old me is the actual frequency of the bass channeling. magic through my body into like a setting with a shared situation out into the ocean of people who want to watch it and listen to it that I miss damn I meant like restaurants and shit but okay I see I was I was thinking alternate street parking but you okay well if you're out there you know if you're out there in Hudson in the small town Have you switched to any other musical instruments to try and channel that energy? Are we hitting the didgeridoo? Amazing. Are we hitting some ambient synthesizers? No. We're hitting a keyboard on a computer. You've got a lot of room for a sitar. I do, and I don't know. Now I wrote a book, and I loved writing more than I could have ever imagined. And that I can do upstate by the fire with my cat on my lap for the rest of my life, and it will work out well. It's conducive. Okay. It's a great third.

act to borrow a pun from the writing structure but when i was listening to an interview with you you mentioned something that will probably make chris jealous and many other authors jealous is that you said writing comes very easy to you don't be one of those because you already you already know what you want to say you just have to write it down And a lot of people, I think they know what they want to say, but they're just not able to harness, you know what I mean, and bring it back down into their fingertips. One of the things, because you haven't read my book and you will know, both my parents were masters of the word and I grew up totally intimidated by my coolest shit masters of the word parents. And that's why music and photography was my thing. Like, I'm not going to try to do that. But through osmosis, first of all, my father was the Jimmy Breslin of Montreal, they called him, the unofficial mayor of downtown Montreal. The guy wrote my entire childhood. He wrote three days a week a column. My entire childhood is narrated by my amazing, charismatic, hilarious beginning, middle, and father. He had such a clear way of understanding humanity, and he was like... both politically active and fighting for the underdog, but he was trying to represent the people. So when it came to writing this book, it's as if I had, like, in the background, my father wrote my entire childhood. So I kind of, but obviously through the lens of a madman, he's a really wild dead long ago. The day my book comes out next week is the age that he was when he died. So my father... died young and tragic but was remarkably mother like so talented and writing and storytelling was his thing so i have it in you know through osmosis but i also um knowing that i was witnessing chaotic history in the making on this like 90s rock saga vikings mythology crazy i mean the kurt and courtney thing the whole thing i was stepping into was so

ridiculously big and complex and everyone and their mother was somehow like affected by like Kurt's death or something. And then the bass player dies and I have to replace her and all this drama I photographed every day and wrote in my diary every day. And in my book, I'm very, very clear about the amount of writing and documenting I did at the time. And many people who have read the book, which you haven't is. Stop hammering that in, please. Sorry, but it's making the interview different because I'm trying to fill in some blanks for you. But is that everyone assumes that I use my diaries and all my photos to tell this book. I wrote this all from memory and the details, every single thing came coming back like a weird waterfall download. And I think it's because I photographed and wrote about it so much. I was like marking, I got burned it into my brain and then compounded with the fact that I went running and screaming from the nineties, tried to avoid almost. all thinking of it tried to define myself outside of it and i needed so badly to purge it that like it was a necessity i was like get it the fuck out of me so i can move on like i have to move on from the story i do not want to live like a little like strangled so you couldn't type fast enough i literally could not type fast enough get it out it reminds me of when when like a radio station goes in you're locked in a tube and they just released ten thousand dollars and you got to grab it those are just chapters exactly and everyone is watching from the outside like exactly interior it was a necessity i don't know how my next book will be and i hope to write one but i had to i had like i had 200 this is already too long just so you know i was 100 pages more than they wanted it was I had to cut 200 pages to get it to this. It was an abnormal amount of information. I had to cut Jeff Buckley out. I had to cut Evan Dando out. I had to cut all these things and these exciting stories out because I needed to support the very complex. Why don't you tell those stories to us then? We can start with Jeff Buckley and then we'll move on to Dando. If you have anything else that you want to share, it's an open forum for you here. Since you're able to just channel this information through the gods and the DNA of your father's storytelling.

And speaking of that, how do you say Nepo baby in Quebecois? There is no word for that in Quebecois, but that's a good question. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app. using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues. Obviously. Maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded.

Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. Head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. I've never thought of it that way other than, yes, I have extraordinary parents that made it very hard. No, we talk about people that have cool parents all the time. It's a different way of being brought up. I think it's very different than people being rich. Yeah, you're right. depending on how you handle it better you know what i mean because if you're able to harness it in some way i think it's probably i think the that a lot of people getting that kind of money fucks them up oh getting the money is the worst most people i know who come from money are super fucked up but put it this way my mother is 83 years old still living cultural relevant life. She was in Paris all of last summer being a dramaturg for a very important giant theater production starring Juliette Binoche, having dinner at midnight with all the actors at 83 and all the things that my mother did not give me when I was a child, which there are and they're in the book and I love my mother. I will take cool role model with like

clear call of what she needs to do in this lifetime over anything I didn't get from her as a emotional you know like I mean she is a kind person but she was a single mother my father came in later I was like totally on my own pretty much which is also helpful but hold on did mom did mom learn anything in this book maybe you didn't want her to learn I mean, yes, there is some stuff. And she's really, you know, the New York Times came up last year. Last week, she's really upset about the fact that my opening line of my book is... I am a product of a one night stand between two radically beautiful and adventurous souls who in their fearless independence came together for a romantic weekend. So you're basically, your mom's like, you're slut shaming me in the first sentence of your book. So apparently her weird friends, I'm like. This is a true story. This is a true story. I did not make this up. What do you want me to do? What do you want me to do, Mom? That's what happened. I got all these emails of, you must be so proud and mortified. Because the New York Times refers to it as that. And I had a big reckoning with her this week of, listen, I actually. have to come to terms with how i am a product literally of two people who are not in love who did not try to have me it's cool that you decided to have me this is but i have to live with the fact that i don't come from your story to tell and it's my story but i mean more not the shade you throw to your mom i mean more of the other stuff you know what i'm saying my mother my god my mother literally was frank zappa's girlfriend she had sex with every she was the first female disc jockey on the montreal airwaves you're saying your mom was okay so your mom was meeting the rockers she that's why i got into rock music you were slut shaming her because she deserved it is what you're saying no you are bad you two are bad because by the way one night stands are a thing of empowerment and they are beautiful and they're free and all that but what's the word slut we don't need to even though courtney used to write that on her stomach all the time as a you guys

We would never say the word slut on this podcast unless it was in the shaming context. Do you have an example of a word to use that would make you happier than the word slut? Sexual freedom? We're going back to the 60s. Free love? I'm more bohemian than I am like nineties. I'm much more like turn of the last century, you know, 1920s. I'm not like, I'm from another time. I'm not really nineties. Like I'm actually out of step with that time, which is why I think I have a cool lens. So revisiting all of this after trying to, you know, leave it behind. What was the, what was the reason? I mean, obviously it's nice to get paid and do it and all that stuff, but I don't do anything for money. Wait till you read my book. I literally run. from money and success. I was asked to join Hole and I said, no, thank you. No, I know that, but I'm saying that was a long time ago. Now you have responsibilities. No, I'm still, I mean, the only compromise I made was weddings. I do not compromise my creative self. For money and success. Zero. Must be nice. All we do is compromise over here at How Long Gone. What do you want us to shill? We'll do it. Do you have cool sponsors that you do have to shill? Is that what you do? Yeah, I love BetterHelp, Melissa. Nothing is better than texting your therapist. Is that a moto yoga? Yeah, well, actually, this is my friend. I'm not sponsored. They're actually a defunct yoga company, but it's my friend's company, and she's a musician. Oh, did they close? They actually had to change their name. It's like a branding thing. I don't know. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't realize that. There's one in LA. There's one in Brooklyn too. My friend Becky, she's a yoga mogul, but she's actually an avant-garde musician from Montreal and I'm proud of her because she came out as an avant-garde musician and made a big yoga industry, which I'm super impressed with. Do you ever interview yoga moguls? No. Who do you interview, actually? We talk to all kinds of people. A lot of musicians, a lot of writers. All kinds of women. We talk to them all the time. But yeah, mostly women. Musicians, writers, comedians, old gay guys. The list goes on. Just any type of people of note, of culture. Some of them we're interested in personally. Some of them...

We get pitched, and it's an awesome random thing. Okay. But, yeah, we talk to anyone and everyone. And then you didn't, you're not talking to me because Jen told you, because you had already heard of my book. I feel like we've been trying to do this for a while. Okay, okay. And it just, you know, some things take, I mean, not this, but some things take years, literally. Like, you know, I was trying to talk to fucking. Richard Ashcroft since we started the podcast and it finally, you know what I mean? Things sort of take. Did you talk to him? Yeah, sweet. Yeah, he was great. Yeah. I'm actually a good Richard Ashcroft. Did I even, I cut, I definitely cut that, but I didn't even write it to begin with. But when that, that song came out and they were, there was that such a special, like parting of the clouds with them arriving. I was like at a. Do you know Tom and Jerry's on Houston? Of course. I've done coke at Tom and Jerry's. I've gotten into really politically incorrect arguments with the Irish bartender there because I'm born in St. Patrick's Day and he gave me way too much tequila and I just put my foot in five mouths. The most important drink of Ireland, the tequila. The Irish tequila. But I have an amazing moment where one of the MTV like... Whatever, like there was all these MTV characters in the 90s, you know, the one who got the video to the people who put Nirvana's video. Like, so all these MTV, you know, young, they were the equivalent of A&R people, but MTV were in our midst. And I'd become friends with one of them, Amy, because most of our crew lived in L.A., but I lived in the East Village. I was trying, like, to get, I went from Montreal to the East Village, and I was forced to move to L.A., which was very hard for me to do, but I lived next to the Cherry Tavern for a while, my first years of whole, and symphony, bittersweet symphony, oh, and that's why this came out. The National Anthem of England, you may know it. Actually, this is so ridiculous, this is. Why I got myself in trouble is that song came on at Tom and Jerry's, and I started telling him this story about in 1995, or whatever year that was, when this song came out, the MTV people called me and asked me to come host The Verve at Tom and Jerry's, and so I went walking from my place to go meet these cool, new, wonderful, talented musicians from England, and I was wearing these really insane vintage platform boots.

And it was like torrential rain out. And I walk into Tom and Jerry's as long as it's like very rare for me to be ever embarrassed. Like I am an embarrassing person. Like my, you know, my mother thinks so. So all of that, I'm walking into Tom and Jerry's and I see this like cool band and all the MTV people with them. And like. And I do these most insane trips slip with this, like my boots. I do like a splits in front of the verve. They all freeze. And I like hold this amazing, like wide legged stance. get up and they all applaud me and that's how I made friends with the bird damn okay did Ashcroft okay so you you ate shit in front of peak Richard Ashcroft at his hottest and then you were able to pull it together yes at his hottest at that point yes well we were we were at the show because we went to London to see them open for Oasis and we Literally saw a woman in front of us Googling his age while he was playing because she couldn't believe how good he looked. We were looking at her screen and I was like, that's how good this guy looks? Fuck me. It's unbelievable. Mainly beyond looks, very charismatic. He's got a thing. No, absolutely. But I think it's like some of those guys, I just think there's some people that no matter how much they party, they're just touched by God and it sort of works out for them in the physical sense at least. It looks don't hurt. He has that old like British rocker situation, like whatever it is like that stayed, like started in like the Zeppelin years, like some kind of, but it's also an attraction that has, or attractiveness that was. kind of locked in by some of that legacy artist stuff, these people who look haggard, but it's sexy, and it's da-da-da-blah-blah. I love nothing more than a haggard man, personally. Oh, my God, amazing. As long as, you know, as long as they've come by it, honestly. Okay, well, let's get into Evan Dando, then. Oh, no. No, no, no. Actually, now we're really digressing. Well, unless this is interesting topics for you. I don't want to be bringing this into... Well, Evan Dando is a long time...

how long gone subject because i'm a huge lemon heads guy and i've also been told by several people in his orbit and my orbit to never have him on this show because it will ruin anything that i think about him so i've i've evan is a sweetheart but yeah i saw him play once and i was like you know what this is bad i'm never gonna see it again i'm gonna just let it go and we're gonna be fine with that and i think that was I felt brave for doing that. I felt strong for being able to resist. Well, a big part of his book, which is not about Evan at all, he didn't even make the cut, although there's maybe like a descriptive line of a guy like him, is that... I am trying to reframe a very misunderstood wild witch named Courtney Love. And a big part of the issue in the demonizing and the burning of the stake of Courtney, other than just general misogyny, is people's lack of understanding around mental illness and addiction. So there's a lot of that in this book. I am a daughter of an addict. not really well adjusted human being who has been around more drug addicts and defined by more drug addicts and other people's darkness than most people. And I am an authority on this subject. And so my love of Evan is that I, I love Evan. He is deeply, deeply emotionally, mentally. unwell you know he is a real drug addict with real mental instability absolutely but do you think do you I guess do you think that because this is something I've tried to I'm I've been sober for like 10 years so I've tried to under understand this myself but why are all of my favorites so fucked up Why is that what I'm, I mean, obviously a lot of us feel that way, but I am particularly attracted and romanticized that. Little Dando, little Spaceman 3, you know. Yeah, like, I think all of that stuff is so cool, and I don't, I know now, I know now that, I know that it's not, and it's not someone's choice, but like, it seems like you had, but I mean, like, you had to be fucked, like.

I can't think of anyone that I love musically that wasn't fucked up during their most prime years. And that's a problem in a lot of ways. That's why you don't know my music, because I just support fucked up people. I am an anti-romanticized self-destruction person, even though my father was truly one of the most remarkable human beings on the planet. But he drank and smoked himself to death. That's what happened. Those people, I don't romanticize it, but what I do know because of my depth of love and engagement in family and music. never in love i never fell in love with an addict i never had a love affair with an addict i've only had it in family and music and when you're in a band it's the same thing it's like a family dynamic and you're in that thing where you're you know you're the enabler or you're the enemy you're one or the other you're either like telling the person you're fucked up or you're just letting them be fucked up and i'm in a constant battle of which side i'm going to be on and I have like, there's not a part of me that finds it cool, romantic. It's more that I love all people. I love complex people. I have deep, deep love and compassion for anyone and especially ones who are. deeply torn inside and struggled to exist, but still managed to live. And yes, sometimes they have to do drugs to get themselves through the day. I have compassion for this. I have also worked really hard in my life to understand that in people. But this is what kept you away from it or in any real way. Oh, I'm a psychedelics person. In my book, my mother, you asked me, what did she find out? I took acid when I was 13. My journey has been in the expansive spiritual nature of psychedelia, and I don't abuse anything because I'm not an addict. I even like taking drag of cigarettes, but I don't buy cigarettes. I dabble, but I never opioids. Yeah, it must be nice. Yeah, it sounds great. I don't do coke, but I rarely buy it. I take acid three times a year to expand my mind. Give me some perks. Okay, so acid at 13, are we licking frogs current day?

I have not done that one. Although for my 50th birthday, I did do a big... ayahuasca journey specifically to open this book but that's only one i've only ever done it's very careful just like i believe in magic dreams mediums i do it very selectively and intentionally and when i need to open something up i don't abuse or use anything regularly okay and maybe i'm using the wrong term here but do you think the ayahuasca quote-unquote worked for the purpose that you were looking Yes. And I'll tell you the moment I came out of it, the first thing I thought was that should be illegal and most people should not do that. But it worked really well for me. Y'all don't do what I do. I am an exception. Most people should not do this. This is insane. Most people should not do this. Where did you do it and what did your shaman look like? Oh, my God. I've never even talked about this publicly. I shouldn't even. You're the first people I'm even saying this to. Who cares? Well, the only reason I'm giving it is because we are talking about drugs and addiction and you're sober 10 years. This is all important stuff is that some people need gateways at moments. And I'm not going to tell you the whole story, but it was a curated, intimate, tiny circle. Oh, I know it was curated. I just mean what country were you in? Canada. They do that shit up there? Hold on. Crystal clear Canada. I was in fucking outer Ontario just doing my ayahuasca. I was throwing up everywhere. Glacial mountains, rocky mountains, British Columbia. Oh, okay. Were you in Banff? Oh, not Banff. Okay. Not far from there, but basically I hid in like hideaway of like new age freedom. Okay. You were on some bullshit. I tell you what. I like it. I love this. I love it. Maybe I'm going into this because I want you to challenge. I want you to know it works for me. It works fucking well. I think like all things, I really believe this to be true, that if you want it to work, that it does. I think that is true.

And also, if you want to be happy, you can be. I mean, I understand that some people, there are clinical... No, I agree with you. I agree with you. I said this before. I think you wake up every day and choose how you want to feel to some extent. Obviously, there's going to be outside factors. Perception. Perception is key. And what's actually interesting about psychedelics is most of it has to do with altered perception. And a big part of getting through the day is seeing... your day through a certain lens of gratitude. Hey, wow, I'm alive. But also, side note, I do like people, even fucked up people. I find them inspiring and interesting. I am very compassionate. I understand if someone's a fucking psycho, they probably weren't loved very well or they were abused or something happened in there. So I'm always looking at the many layers. I'm so glad I don't look at the world in a one dimensional like frame or else life would, you know, then actually recently I was having a debate about this and I very courageously, I really am not afraid to die. I'm actually like seeing that, like turning other side of 50 is me just like walking gracefully to my death. And someone said, but. well you're not afraid to die i said no how it would ruin my life if i was afraid to die and i would like i literally have to live this life your third eye is fucking wide open your shit is your shit is open whereas i don't have time i'm too busy hustling and setting up my classes i don't have time to worry about dying yeah hustle yeah how's do you you know um oh my god There's that song, everyone hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. Yes, Rick Ross. Every day I'm hustled by Rick Ross. I truly have considered because Jen, who's only reading my book now because she's doing my Q&A with me in my hometown for the book. Even the good girls will cry if anybody listening knows why we're here. I have a book. Jen is interviewing me. She's reading it. And she's like, yeah, your new age shit is all in there, but you are hustling. And I'm like.

Yes, actually. I always have been busting my fucking ass and connecting the dots. I met this person. I'm going to write a letter. I'm going to get this to happen. I make shit happen. I'm not sitting meditating. I'm making it happen today with you right now. The Hustling song I want to have is my walkout piece for my head. That'd be a real twist. I was going to play one of your solo songs at the end of the episode, maybe a whole song, a little Malibu, a little Violet, but no, no, no. We're going to play Rick Ross's Hustling and I'll find a nice trap remix. of it i literally had it because i have a dj set that i bring around to uh like my art center i do the after party dark wave it's majorly depeche mode sisters of mercy i sometimes throw in a bit of bo burnham i have like a a rape but that song i put in but i was like burnham the comedian Yes, I'm in love with him, actually. Sisters of Mercy into the Bo Burnham? I'm not ready. What the fuck does Bo Burnham make music? I thought he was an actor. Oh, my God. You have not listened to his album? No, I'm good. You are licking the toads. This TV special he made during COVID? No, I remember that. This is one of the weirdest things ever said on this podcast. I have to say, Sisters of Mercy. Did you get that shit on vinyl? I did. Double box set on vinyl. You got double so you could cut it? Oh, my God. And then, guys, you know, I live in quaint, cute upstate, right? I love Bo Burnham. I have the double box set vinyl. Bo Burnham and Phoebe Bridgers are walking down the street of Hudson like nine months ago. I do a U-turn. my car I get out and I walk up to them he's like a shy weirdo she probably is the one usually being approached like what are you doing in Hudson I'm a huge fan he's very awkward like I have an art center here I would love for you to play he's like I don't really tour anymore I'm like I know I know I saw your special I know you're afraid of touring but if you want to perform you should he totally like nice but walks away

A week later, because I guess they're looking for houses here. Who knows? He walks into this restaurant. I'm like, it's me. Remember me? He's so afraid of me. And do you know what I say? I bought your vinyl. You're the worst. Okay, next time, this is what I would have led with. If I see some fucking cat lady running at me with my double vinyl, this is what you lead with. Hey, bitch, I was in Hole and Smashing Pumpkins. And they go, oh, okay, never mind. You got to start with that in this situation. I know. I don't know how to do that. I don't do that very well. I appreciate that about you, and I think it's the right way to do that. But in some certain instances. It's a hard thing to do. In certain situations, you have to identify yourself. Otherwise, people will be like, oh, here's another fan that's going to ruin my day. It is cool, though. I bet that the amount of times that people approach those two and they're there for Bo and not Phoebe is you're one and a. And that is, that's also, that makes you special. He's so cool. He, but so on his album, when you go to your iTunes, you might as well play this. So we're going to play Rick Ross and Biden. Go and Jeff Bezos. He has B-sides that are these outtakes that are dance songs that I literally play on my dance. They're really going to make me vote for Joe Biden. It's like the most absurd, incredible commentary on modern life in 2022 when he made it, okay? I can't. I'm never trying to think about 2022 again, but I guess that... Actually, it was 2020. Is that the horrible election? No, I don't. It's all bad. But anyway. I could have used... AI technology to figure out what music would be the most upstate New York arts and cultural center DJ set playlist to be. And a thousand of our greatest minds would never choose the Joe Biden song from the Bo Burnham COVID special to be in the mix. Breathtaking stuff. I thought you're going to play like tool remixes that are like drum and bass, but no, no, no. What's up with this photo book? What's up with the photo book? Who's putting it out?

I don't know what you know about me now because you didn't. Did you read on Wikipedia that I started as a photographer? I went to photography. I did know that about you. I said no to joining Hole when I was invited because I wanted to go do my master's in photography at RISD. Okay, nerd. So in my mind, I'm a fine arts photographer who got hijacked and that's all cool. But I took a roll of film a day. on tour i have 15 000 negatives i took a photo of every single so the issue so you know again it's kind of like the book i have to purge it i have to purge it otherwise it's just sitting collecting dust so delmonico dap they're and they they're a big art publisher but it's coming hand in hand with a museum exhibit so the exhibit opens in toronto at this beautiful big museum called it will tour places so what's exciting is i'll get to tour internationally with the exhibit And the book is a companion piece to the memoir in that it's the visual version of my obsessive chronicling of like, I'm going to tell you everything that ever happened in my life in the 90s. And none of these pictures have been seen. Except for Evan Dando. None of these pictures have ever been seen before. That's right. It's a time capsule, a little bit like my stories where I just sort of like, ugh, get it away. I just put it away. And then it was like burning. a hole in like my, I gotta like do something with it. And so I been for the last five years, scanning, archiving, databasing. Now you can go to like a computer program and be like hotel room, Courtney's, but, um, Marilyn Manson, like you can get every single. category that could have been in my like so many so they're called search words yes is that what a cue code it's whatever they are yeah yeah so you're saying everything is cataloged as long as it's not Marilyn Manson's butt I'm happy yeah that's fair there's a lot of butts I'd want to see from your era but Marilyn's is not top top butt yeah so I did all the work on it and then through scanning and categorizing and coming up with clearly like I have as few reoccurring perspectives which is

the state like so the audience is like my one of my number one muses photographing the fans is like there's a whole section of the book and the exhibit that's an ode to the fans like just that undivided attention because you played some you played some fucked up big yeah oh yeah between hole and the pumpkins i mean like festivals in europe in the 90s is like as big as this is My first show with Hole in front of 65,000 people. I have played six concerts in my life at this moment. I am through the looking glass, joined a ginormous band, and my seventh concert on the bass guitar is in front of that audience, which is an ocean. Yes. Okay. Did you know the songs? How well would you say you knew the songs? I listened to the Live Through This album on the flight, on my way to meet them, where I had already like... I told them I don't know if I'm interested. I listened to them, and then all of a sudden, it was like a magic wand. Something crazy happened where basically I understood, fuck it, fine, I need to join. These people need me. This is my destiny. This is beyond music. This poor woman and her daughter and this cool drummer, they have nobody. They have nobody. So I joined because, and I had four days to rehearse, and I didn't make one mistake. So some people who interview me about music, talked to me about bass playing. I'll ask Courtney. Let me ask Courtney if you made a mistake or not. She doesn't remember shit. I know that you have a background in music. You grew up playing music your whole life. You've also said that playing bass is sort of known as the easiest instrument on stage. With your musical genius mixed in with the ease of bass playing, you're able to pick it up. on a southwest flight out of toronto no problemo it was montreal air canada and you are the researched one yes just a wee bit just a wee bit that's that's a lot of people that's a lot of people to play different but you were you nervous or not even nervous no

not even no it's actually harder to play in front of 20 people that kind of makes sense actually yeah that makes sense it's actually easier that with the moment i got out there i realized this isn't real this is insane they can't even see if i'm sweating like i can't even see there it's such a and apparently there's a section in here like someone quoted it back to me the other day is i use that as an analogy of what fame is it's like exposed yet not at all personal it's like this distanced it's like those size that scale yeah you're protected it's almost like they can't hurt you exactly technically and when you're in a crowd with 20 people when the guy yells show me your tits you're looking right at it and and you know at a giant festival in in budapest yeah it's not like a real person exactly so yeah and that was it was easy for me to enter that realm but then also between i grew up in the public eye on a small scale but i was like on the campaign trails on my father's tv show and radio show my father was larger than life and a remarkably charismatic wild human so i was groomed for easy like i really was so easy we don't use that word i know we don't use that word i actually shouldn't have said primed whatever you were marinated i was It was very easy for me. Put it that way. Just like be in the moment. I think that, so what's up you, but you. most of i guess a lot of these people do you still have relationships with them or at least it's cool yeah you've managed to keep in touch and like stay oh my god no no i'm closer to billy and courtney now than i was them i was just in la last week doing last month doing his podcast having tea with her we truly this is the where the fun stuff actually starts the fact that she's not dead she's alive which is a miracle the fact that she's making a new record in her 60s, the fact that I sang on it and we get along and I'm rooting for her and she's rooting for me. Rumors are saying that it's good. It is. All my sources are telling me it's good. It is good. I went out of love of our history. You went down it no matter what, but then you were like, it's good. Truly. I'm so excited for her. It's amazing. I mean, we're all excited. I think there's certain people, for whatever reason, if they stick around this long, I think culture at large wants them to win.

you know what i mean you want to see it work out if they can live yeah through this literally she better win because she should be dead like and i she's having her moment for sure and i'm so excited for her you know does that ever put the piece inside ever no but she will at least be showered with love not like literally shotgun shells that they used to throw on stage so you guys having you guys having a relation or a relationship warms my heart honestly because it feels like that's like that feels impossible i think when you're looking from the outside or and you know any of the history yeah and that's a huge part of the book is that no one can put that our relationship as a symbol of like highest frequency of woman relationships with each other with it which could have gone terribly wrong so many and we didn't speak for 15 years so and actually we did go wrong for a bit and had she died in that time yeah i remember the whole time thinking if she dies i'm gonna have lots of unresolved shit okay she better not die while i'm not talking so much to yell at her before she goes well yeah you can't die i got a bone to pick we're we're we're in the time where everyone's cashing in on the reunion shows obviously i'm sure you've Had a couple offers over the years or heard some rumblings. Have we gotten any closer to a whole reunion show? Have there been any offers? I know you don't do it for the money, but you know. Good memory there. The answer is genuine. I know that she said a bunch of stuff on the internet this week. But it is, especially for two people like me and her, she's like a wild card. careful there is no you're a card she's a wild card how would i how would you describe yourself careful just careful i'm a careful gal at the end of the day sensitive i don't even know what i am not i don't know what i am but i'm not a wild card actually um no you don't like me as such is i i honestly can tell you it's an unknown just like

when does love strike when does magic lights it's an unknown i i and it's it could happen but it's not planned that is for sure yeah yeah i mean i think that like part of me is so impressed by the resistance uh because it's so cool but the other part of me is i think i think people should be able to sort of and once again we know it's not about the money but there's like a level of me that thinks you deserve it you know what i mean because you you did it and it's like now there's more people that would appreciate you know it's a different time people would pay whatever i mean there's no question ahead of time women here the music still holds up just as well you know yeah and one of my classic record is a classic record classic record i thought you said akashic records i don't know if you know that but that's another trip but um so some of your listeners might know but i'm going to tell you one of the most proud moments that have happened in the last year is bringing my teenage daughter who has found her way through the love of music through her own search, the Billie Eilish's and the Olivia Rodrigo amazingness and all the powerful, talented women out there making music. And I got to bring her to meet some of these girls. And Olivia Rodrigo said to her, to my daughter, without your mother. we wouldn't have this. And that was like, okay, finally, finally, I don't have to explain my daughter that we did work really hard. And that, no, seriously, this shit was cool. I'm not, I'm serious. I've never even tried. She does not like, she's not interested, but Olivia Rodrigo said that during like a little pin drop. Olivia, Olivia Rodrigo from all accounts also has amazing tastes in a way that the whole story about her bringing the breeders and like how, you know, the whole, the whole story behind that was so great. Yeah. She's also well, she's. surrounded you can tell she's like a level head she's when management and producers are together they're guiding her well too of like yeah show you know so yes wait a second i know you have to go i have to go what did we not talk about other than all of it well i had one more question on the subject of olivia rodrigo and billy eilish okay when i was doing some research a couple years ago you said rock music saves lives pop music is fun but it does not save lives do you still believe that

Well, it's such a long thing. I mean, the main thing is, do I think that Billie Eilish is definitely saving girls' spirits in bedrooms? Yes. Music has the power to save everybody and anyone. Classical music. Music saves lives. I have a personal love and need for rock music as a visceral explosion of things that are scary, things that are complicated, things that, you know. Pain is in rock music and in torture is in rock music. And I'm not saying that you can't also write a poetic story about a tortured thing. But for me, the lack of visceral rock music that has happened in the last decade or two makes me sad for people who could really use it. Like that kind of like anger, like that rage that Courtney gave people and that Kurt, of course, gave people. That is something that people need. And look at us now. We need to scream our heads off. I have my own way of working through pain and rage, but some people really need that visceral thing. And I do find the packaged, glossy. poppy everything is not helping people tap into their dark side because otherwise dark sides are going to be like hidden over here and then it's going to come out in shadows what are you talking about we have dark sides now machine gun kelly is super dark oh yeah no it's true you know we can't discount no there is well sorry there was plenty of dark sides i guess i mean through analog like you know just like tradition of like whatever sabbath was doing i don't know you know like i i like i have i think that all music can save lives and all arts can too. Books, maybe, you know, paintings, movies, all that. But there's this particular frequency in what rock music can do for those playing and those receiving it. And I do, I am an ambassador of that special magic. Yeah, I mean, I think that type of hard, angry music exists in the underground and it's bigger than ever.

but we don't have it in the forefront the way we did in the 90s with you know metallica and right you know rage against the machine and all these bands that were truly raging and truly the biggest acts of all time exactly yeah we lost that that was too scary we just need to have like raging tech guys now that do it instead. I find that so sad that the mainstream... I agree. I think of Sam Altman as our Rage Against the Machine, kind of. Now that we got Green Day... playing the super bowl, you know, with a lesbian wig on, you know, a lot has changed and things need to, is it what? Is he wearing a wig? Okay. It's not a wig. It's his real hair, but it does look like Ellen. Yeah. Metallica is playing at the sphere, you know, like tool makes sense from a visual. You're probably going to do a little. We don't talk. We were banned. We banned tool talk on this podcast. I'm a tool. I'm a tool head, bro. Awful band. All right, Melissa, thank you for joining us. Thank you. out the 17th i will buy my copy proudly um at a independent bookseller thank you i will listen to it on spotify to make sure they get a nickel and you'll see because i won't be able to listen to it again because there's parts of that book i could not read without crying and i could not like i just could not get it done without and the engineers who are crying too said well We'll just keep it. Yeah, you got to keep it. That's what people want. That's why I can't never listen to an audio book. I don't want to start crying. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. Our pleasure. I loved it. Come upstate. Yeah, we'll come by. Yeah, I will. I'll eventually be forced to do that. I'll see you later.

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